Friday, March 11, 2011

Open Forum Friday: Good Gay, Bad Gay

Earlier this week I participated in an interview with a graduate student in the UK. He's writing his dissertation on bareback culture, and bareback bloggers specifically. When he asked if I'd be willing to answer some of his questions, I was both intrigued and anxious to see where the dialogue might lead.

Much of the conversation focused around the idea of community. Did I feel there was a genuine bareback community, he wanted to know? If so, what ideals did its members hold in common? I personally think any group that self-identifies as such is nominally a community, though I think even those communities organized around mutual interest (whether of barebackers, or lesbians, or housewives, or vacuum cleaner salesmen) are as diverse, supportive, argumentative, or fractious as the actual communities in which we all live.

We did touch on a couple of topics that had me thinking well past the interview's end, however. While talking about the notion of bug chasing and gift giving, the much-publicized behaviors in which HIV-negative bottoms pursue HIV-positive tops, or vice versa, I brought up the opinion that while the taboo aspects of the forbidden act might make it a powerful fantasy for many, I didn't think in reality it was more than a niche phenomenon—but that more importantly, it was one of those flash points of culture that the gay community seized upon in order to divide itself.

As a community—and I'm including bisexual men and women, as well as the gays and lesbians and the transgendered—we have a distinct tendency to divide ourselves up into Good Gays and Bad Gays. The dividing line and the criterion that draw it are different for everyone, but the end result is always that the speaker is inevitably one of the Good Gays, the people who are upright and moral and on the side of the righteous. Some unfortunate collection of individuals other than the speaker, on the other hand, is going straight to hell.

For many in the so-called bareback community, for example, it may be that those who religiously practice sero-sorting when choosing their sex partners are on the side of the pure and true, while anyone who crosses the pos and neg streams is a fucking embarrassment. What these gentlemen might not remember, however, is that within the gay community itself, safe sex advocates think themselves the moral crusaders, while anyone who barebacks is regressing the entire gay movement a hundred years.

There are other schisms. Every time Pride rolls around, I hear men and women bemoaning the necessity of Pride fairs and parades. Their refrain is always the same: Pride doesn’t accomplish anything but allow the local news to broadcast images of men in leather and shrieking queens prancing around in next to nothing. It's an embarrassment, they mourn. Such behavior only makes the straight population think we're all like that. And it’s not! It’s just the freaks! These men believe that what we should be doing, as a community, is blending in. Playing nice. Obscuring our difference, rather than celebrate it.

We have the guys who worship the cult of masculinity—who cringe with embarrassment in the presence of whisper-thin twinks wearing dyed hair and jumping to Lady Gaga. Those fucking queers who drop purses from their mouths whenever they open them should be rounded up and dumped off the edge of a cliff, they'll say. Fucking mortifying, they are. Or drag queens—what's up with those freaks? Why should they have a place at the table, when there are so many other less scandalous souls waiting to be recognized for their worth?

It's said, I think, when we automatically label ourselves as the normal, good people, and brand anyone not like us—or who revels in being something we most fear might be true about ourselves—as deviants. We all have our preferences, sure. I might not be attracted to men who eat poop, but as icky as I might find the act, I recognize that some enjoy it, and know that some of the things I enjoy might disturb them. I'm not personally attracted in a sexual way to cross-dressers of any sort, but I love my drag queen and cross-dressing sisters for pushing the envelope and always being on the forefront of the gay rights movement. You go, girls! Yes, I actually said that.

I tend to be very careful about slapping a derogatory label on broad classes of people. The only Bad Gays in my eyes are the assholes, and those who go out of their way to act like dicks. I’m uneasy about calling other people shameful, or sociopaths, or abominations, because I know in so many ways I’m a freak myself.

I think that when we're conscious about the ways in which we divide ourselves into the Good Gays and Bad Gays, and when we’re aware of how easily we can be seen to fall on the wrong side, we tend to be less likely to indulge in that kind of crap ourselves. So for this Friday's open forum, I'm throwing out the question—what schisms do you find in the gay community in your own life? You may have been on the receiving end of someone else branding you a Bad Gayl. Who lumped you into that category, and what were they overlooking about themselves that might have made the whole thing ironic?

Or more bravely, where do you draw the line yourselves, when you designate your own categories of Bad Gays?

These open forums are really fun for me, because I get to hear your opinions in topics rather than beat you over the head with my own. I'm anxious to discover your thoughts on the topic.

36 comments:

  1. now you have hit a nerve....I have a complete blog posting scheduled to come out the first of June. Pride is an important part of Gay culture, however it has been "derailed" somewhere along the line and become a Jerry Springer Style "Freak Show", the the media seems to center on...no center is not a good word....TARGET maybe? (No pun intended)
    I think it's very important to have these celebrations but I personally would like my dignity back....

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  2. Where does one start? In my youth, I strived for normality. I thought the best thing to gain acceptance was to seem like everyone else. Dress appropriately, do not act too feminine, don't whore yourself out (at least do not advertise you do) etc.,etc. As I started to grow, I met gays from all categories and started to realize that one of the best aspects of my community was the variety of individuals. I took the time to get to know those that did not fit my niche and I met a lot of intelligent, fascinating individuals. I relish individuality. The so called 'freaks' of our community paved the way for most of the rights and freedoms I have today. They were willing to put themselves out there when us so called 'normal' ones did not. Is it fair or human to now shove them off in a corner and pretend they do not exist? It is my belief that people should own who they are. Be the best drag queen, twink, leather daddy, cum-guzzling bareback breeder, trans, etc., etc. I encourage everyone to get to know the person behind the stereotype and you will find a fascinating array of people. I continue to be the outworldly perceived 'normal' gay, but relish the diversity of humanity. I have the privelege of living in a very gay friendly and open city and no longer face the discriminatory struggles of before and I thank every person who put themselves in that parade or protest for making this happen. Do not judge, get to know what makes someone tick. Have we not learned that discrimination of any kind is detrimental to progress? Thank you Rob, for continuing to be you.

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  3. My tent is pretty big. I tend to draw the line only at self-righteousness and hypocrisy. Oh—and gay Republicans.

    (So we may conclude that's not a shit-eatin' grin in your photo...?)

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  4. Itz,

    So is your upset at the media, or at the Pride events themselves?

    It seems to me that one only loses dignity when one cedes it. The more outrageous elements of Pride honestly don't have any direct effect on you (unless they're squirting you in the face with a water pistol or rubbing your face in their boobies). They honestly don't. Nobody is going to think any the less of you, personally, because of a drag queen float at a Pride parade.

    And if they by some chance do, well, they're just looking for an excuse to discriminate against you, anyway. They'd pick on something else that you found dignified, if they didn't have an outrageous sound bite.

    I'm not sure that dignity is anyway the end-all, be-all. Sometimes a little fun is in order. We've got 51 weeks of the year to be dignified, not to mention untold amounts of time to rest with dignity in our graves.

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  5. Vancouver Steve,

    The so called 'freaks' of our community paved the way for most of the rights and freedoms I have today. They were willing to put themselves out there when us so called 'normal' ones did not.

    Preach it, brother.

    And you know, I don't mind that people judge. Everyone's going to judge one way or another—some will come down on the side against, and some will be enthusiastically for a given thing. I think that learning to communicate beyond one's prejudices, and not to let them interfere with honest dialogue, is the most adult way to deal with tricky issues.

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  6. Throb,

    Self-righteousness and hypocrisy are my hot buttons, too. General assholery, actually.

    Gay Republicans. I don't understand them. But I do feel sorry for them.

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  7. I love Pride! I've been going since I was a Twink and I still get excited at 41. Pride is part of our culture as a community. It's important to support it, if not for us for the next generation. How can we say "It gets Better" when we bash the one thing that really shows our community at it's best.

    Am I a Good Gay or Bad Gay? I think of myself as Every Gay!

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  8. This is a tough one. I can tend toward being judgmental, but I've learned to try to temper that. A key thing I've learned is that you can disapprove of one area of what someone does and admire another.

    For example, Mr. Steed, I really think that the way you emotionally connect with so many good men and boys is a wonderful gift to the world. Amazing really! I'm sometimes troubled by the apparent lack of consideration of the risks on the barebacking side of your stories. I think things like "MrSteed is always a top so the risks of him getting HIV are lower, or if he has it he may be on a good drug cocktail so not likely to spread anything, but is Spencer learning the right thing or reinforcing reflexes which are going to cause much grief later?" My old self, many years ago would have been condemning. But the current self thinks that things are complicated, and some grey choices are grey choices. And for all I know, Spencer is perfectly up on the hard choices, and is very ok with making them.

    Now, that isn't to say that I don't believe that bug chasing is very bad. And I strongly believe that the stealthing stuff is flat out rape. But I understand that wanting to bareback, and doing it, isn't identical to those extremes, or advocating the actually bad behavior. And it isn't right to tar everyone who doesn't agree exactly with how you approach the world with the bad things of OTHER people who don't agree with how you approach the world (but who if you were honest, the person you are addressing doesn't agree with either).

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  9. Hmmmm, on rereading I want to be clear about how precious I think your gift of deeply connecting with people is, so it doesn't get lost in all the other stuff.

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  10. "What schisms do you find in the gay community in your own life?" First year of college, fat, small dick, small town queer of no self worth that no amount of therapy since then has helped me to crawl out of my hole -- and today I'm one of those creepy/needy you've written about -- those judgments certainly made me feel better about myself! The shame is, at one point, 5 years ago I had it all: good job, my own home and a man that loved me -- then I got sick and it all disappeared in the blink of an eye. And I certainly don't have the money now to even buy affection in any form. This sounds too much like a pity party to me with no invited guests and certainly no celebration. I know I'm hard on myself but despair/depression is not a many splendor thing. I'm going to miss reading your posts Rob (too painful). Thanks for sharing and wishing you and the Breeder Readers all the best. aka sammybear

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  11. Breeder,
    DO NOT misunderstand me...I DO love my people... Feathers, sequins, leather drag and all..and YES I do agree we need a month out of each year to let our "Hair down" But...reflecting on how far we have come and how much farther we have to go seems to have taken a back seat to the need for "Shock Value"...at least in MY part of the country its the 'norm'. and is it the Media or my people that upsets me with this? I'm not quite sure...I will have to think about that one...It just seems to me that things could be handled a bit more classy and dignified...at least in front of the cameras...The only Pride-type event I have ever attended that I really felt made a difference was the Gay Pride March on washington in '92

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  12. Leo,

    Your enthusiasm rings through loud and clear. And I love it. I'm glad you still enjoy Pride after all these years.

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  13. Hey Rob,

    Unlike Vancouver Steve, I never strive for normality. I don't strive for masculinity neither do I judge people that are more out there. Why would people feel the need to label me just because I happen to be gay? And the irony is the worst kind of critique usually comes from the gays.

    All in all,I am just a regular college guy who likes to laugh a lot; I don't fit into any stereotypes, and sometimes it sucks to be me because I have no sense of belonging anywhere. I was asked once,"Are you sure your're gay because you should like this..." Seriously, the only times that I really fit in is when I'm in bed with someone.

    Oh yea, did I ever mention I hate going to my gay friends' parties...the music they played are dreadful. What's up with the whole Britney Spears and Lady Gaga music? Ok I have to admit that Lady Gaga is a great artist who has many talented people working for her. But Britney Spears?! That music makes me want to leave the room. I don't like it, is because it's crap(in my opinion), not because it's too 'gay' for me. Unfortunately, the view wasn't well tolerated among my circle of gay friends.

    Oh well...

    William

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  14. Saab,

    Without suggesting you were confusing the two, for the sake of everyone else I'd like to make clear that when I was talking about bug chasing and gift giving, I wasn't bringing that difficult top of 'stealthing.' There are top men who stealth—whether by engaging in unprotected sex as a poz man without informing a neg partner (or by lying about his status), or by secretly engaging in bareback sex without his partner's knowledge.

    That's an entirely different can of worms from the consensual sex I meant to imply between a willing poz top and a willing neg bottom.

    I'm perfectly aware that no one is going to approve of all my life's choices. I manage to do things that piss off someone or another, most of the time. The fact that you're so tactful about not condemning me, however, means that you're at least listening, and understanding, and for that I can't thank you enough.

    As for Spencer and his choices—those of us with the capability to educate the young (or relatively young) should do so. But there comes a point after which they get to make their own choices, even if we elders see them as wrong-headed.

    I appreciate your care, Mr. Saab.

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  15. Itz,

    Those events make all kinds of difference to all kinds of people other than yourself. For the newly-out who might be attending his or her first Pride event, seeing all those people coming together to have fun makes all the difference in the world. For a teenager who's felt isolated all his life, being surrounded by others of his kind, even if a small percentage are freaks, is going to be transformative.

    Not every event has to have a weighty message, like a march on the capitol. Though trust me, those are good too.

    I'm not really a fan of the argument that we, as a community, should behave primly and properly in front of the camera, or when we think people are watching. Sitting back and hoping to be invited to the grown-up table hasn't really won any oppressed group any rights.

    I'm not arguing with you, by the way. Just expressing my differing views, and being confident enough with you to know that you respect it.

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  16. Sammybear,

    You seem like you're in a lot of pain this week, my friend. I hope it passes, because I would miss your presence here. I wish you strength, and please know it's not as bad as it might seem.

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  17. William,

    I'm glad you feel comfortable with yourself. It's a state of mind that many of us never achieve, though we yearn for it more than anything.

    It does seem a pity that the worst critiques often come from our own. Even when made in a joking manner, words can sting.

    As for Britney . . . well, take consolation in the notion that this, too, shall pass.

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  18. 8:06 Anonymous,

    Everyone makes moral judgments. And I'm not talking here in this entry about not making moral judgments against murderers, whether they come in serial killer form or do it with their dicks. That wasn't my point at all.

    I was talking specifically about making large, sweeping judgments against big numbers of people in order that one ends up on the 'good' side, while a bunch more end up among the unredeemable. It seems to me that thinking seeing behavior as lying along the spectrum that you describe is probably one way to avoid this unthinking behavior. People who too quickly classify others into the folks-like-me/unwashed-others dichotomy are not going to be attuned to any kind of subtlety whatsoever.

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  19. Anonymous,

    There's a reason your first two comments didn't get posted; Blogger recognizes the IP as spam. It's a shame you decided to get hostile, since I was actually agreeing with you.

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  20. I read you every day, haven't commented for ages. You know best, but are enemy bloggers double teaming you? Keep up the great work and don't let the Furious Forties win control. It takes too much to stomp out all those flames. To ignore isn't easy, but some jealous turds love pissing people off. It's their payoff in a nasty game, and rattling your saber can make it look like you picked the fight.

    Augie

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  21. Augie,

    Thanks for the support. It was just one anonymous poster who's been a pain in the past. I wrote a comment that was in full agreement with what he'd originally said, but apparently he didn't read it, and merely wanted to make it sound as if I was being unreasonable.

    In the future I'll just be deleting these things. I don't really care if I t looks as if I picked a fight. I know the truth.

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  22. Breeder,
    ABSOLUTELY you are 'comfortable' enough with me to disagree...and you raise some valid points and have, indeed, made me look at things a bit differently...I am still not convinced a large group of men dressed as Marilyn Monroe is the way to gain the acceptance and rights we so desperately desire...

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  23. Itz,

    But see, what I'd say in return is: why does everything have to pertain to gaining acceptance and rights? Sure, it's a laudable goal. It's something we want. Why, though, do you assume that everything we do must contribute to its pursuit?

    Look, someone can say to you, "Sure, your hobby of sailboating [or stamp collecting, or watching Netflix DVDs, or whatever you do in your spare time] is fun. But what's it doing to gain the acceptance and rights we so desperately desire?" And really, what can you say to that in return?

    Or what're you going to say to them when they say to us, "Look, you guys both write sexually explicit blogs. One of you fucks everything in sight, and the other says it's all about sex to him. Don't you think you're doing the community a disservice by making people think we're about nothing but sex? How is gaining us our rights?" Both of us might have really cogent arguments about how writing about sexual behavior is liberating and even helpful to others, but there are our opponents with a sound bite that makes us sound like sex-deranged homos.

    Boiling everything down to an issue of whether or not an activity contributes to the quest for equal rights is not really an argument so much as a heavy, blunt weapon. Usually it's used to divide the herd. Not everything had to contribute to The Cause. Sometimes we do things simply because we like to, or because it's important to us, or because it's fun. And in my eyes, that's all right.

    I wouldn't underestimate the power of a drag queen. It was a bunch of drag queens who started the Stonewall riots. One eyewitness at the time described them as 'disorderly and tacky and cheap.' Look at what a legacy they left.

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  24. Breeder,
    "sex-deranged homos"...I LOVE IT!!! I must use this in my blog sometime...

    "Why, though, do you assume that everything we do must contribute to its pursuit?" I DON'T assume everything has to contribute to it...My point is...and I guess im not expressing it well at all...and maybe I'm totally wrong in what I think and have observed in the past...it seems TO ME that it's forgotten a lot of the time in the festivals and parades...Perhaps this is a Logistics matter for me...KY...ooops...to avoid another lame lubricant joke...KENTUCKY is not exactly the mecca of poilitical correctness...or anything else for that matter...

    As far as the blog is concerned...speaking for MYSELF...were I approached in such a manner as you describe...I would probably point out that it's a journal PRIMARILY MY OWN entertainment...and if the reader dislikes my posts...well...as I told that one guy...there's a million+ gay sex blogs out there go read one of those...

    I am not a drag queen but I'm proud to be Disorderly, Tacky and Cheap (but never free...)

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  25. I find it interesting that both Throb and you deride self-righteousness and then put down gay Republicans. There are those of us out here and quite frankly, I, for one, am tired of being put down by my liberal brothers. There are reasons that I am a Republican, just as there are reasons that you are a Democrat. Maybe we can start building bridges instead of putting others down.

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  26. 12:30 Anonymous,

    Let's be totally fair here. What I said, if you look at the comment in which I discussed gay Republicans, was that I didn't understand them. And that I felt sorry for them. That's not a self-righteous put-down.

    Second thing: in the pages of this blog, and in its comments, I don't recall ever declaring affiliation with any political party. I've certainly implied in the comment above that I'm not a Republican, but it doesn't follow that I must be a Democrat. I could be a Libertarian, an Independent, a member of the Green Party, or a card-carrying follower of the The Rent Is Too Damn High Party. Just because you assume I'm a Democrat doesn't make it so.

    I would certainly hope you had your reasons for your political affiliations. Every normally-functioning adult has reasons for the things he does. I have reasons for my political beliefs. I also had reasons for having a frozen waffle for breakfast, and choosing the outfit I have on right now. I had reasons yesterday for snapping viciously at a loved one (reasons that I now regret), and an hour ago I had reasons for picking my nose on the freeway where passing cars could see me. In the latter two cases, those reasons might have been plain to me, but they weren't necessarily defendable, or wise reasons.

    In my entry I asked for readers to respond, if they chose, by discussing their own community-dividing prejudices. One of my readers did so by bringing up gay Republicans, and in the discussion I admitted my own prejudices in that area. I never claimed I was an advanced being free of flaws. I'm not. I'm a work in progress. My entry was a meditation on how I am trying to work on being conscious of them, before they turn into more permanent schisms.

    Here's how I see the situation. You belong to a party that doesn't particularly want you, a gay man, within it. It goes out of its way to deny you rights and freedoms. It includes anti-gay planks on its election platforms. The most vocal proponents of your party are rabidly anti-gay, and the party as a whole seeks to promote legislation and vote it into law that denies millions of people nationwide the same freedoms that everyone else enjoys—laws that will affect people for generations to come. On the other hand, you've got your liberal brothers despising you for aiding what they see as the enemy, in institutionalizing irrational hatred. You're beleaguered from both sides. No wonder you're tired.

    I never said that gay Republicans are anathema. I didn't say that my political beliefs—whatever they are—or that my personal actions are superior to yours. What I said was that I don't understand your affiliations. I'm sorry, I honestly don't. And for these reasons listened in the previous paragraph alone, I feel sorry for you.

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  27. Well, as for "pride" events, I think like any event such things need to continually "evolve" and reflect the times and people - now.

    Otherwise its not so organic or "genuine" as it risks becoming something of a retro simulation of some earlier message.
    (Like Beatlemania)! :O)

    Young dudes today need to add their own brand of fuel to pride events. Whatever their message is now would be what adds to the growth & development of the larger conversation.

    We have a generation of guys now who have grown up around tons of images of homosex and with real cocks and dick-sucking. And not thinking too much about it.

    Yet, its also been an era of a new thrust of attempted oppression. SO UNLIKE an earlier time of personal repressed homosex AND social oppression, we have a trickier generation of young guys who are very familiar with cock and cum and moving between genders...but which is hearing a lot of hate.

    Its almost as if "pride" today is less about the "gay" and more about not being bigoted in general.

    =============================

    As for my personal pet peeves? I always get a hoot out of men who beat off to everything and once they cum, they get all morally superior or express their own inner-conflicts and like to BLAME the very thing they just beat off to.

    You get it online. Like, for someone who HATES gloryhole cumpigging so much, goodness you can't stay away from a blog about it.

    Or they download cum drinking pics but post comments about how anyone could drink that stuff.

    Even in real life, you get some men who royally screw your throat,stare at your mouth as they pump their nutsac goo into it...and then cop some attitude as they zip up. Like, YOU made 'em do that. lol

    Get real with self first, I always say.

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  28. Mr. GHJ,

    Your pet peeve corresponds to mine. I confess freely that I can often be hypocritical, but there's a particular brand of post-coital weirdness with some guys who, once they've released that load, want to assault the person who helped them get it out. Most men won't physically beat up their partner, of course. They'll just try to make them feel miserable as possible. Maybe it makes them feel better about what they've just done, but it seems in the long run as if they're fooling themselves.

    I liked your insight about Pride events becoming like waxworks without the participation of the upcoming generations. My big beef about Pride parades is not with the drag queens or the leather men or the guys walking down the street nude, but with the increasing corporate sponsorship of the floats. Grab a flatbed truck, deck it with some rainbow balloons, hang a huge sign on it advertising the latest energy drink, and put a couple of listless dancing boys on it and call it a pride float, seems to be current standard.

    The groups I saw last year at Toronto Pride that were the freshest, the cheekiest, and the most refreshing were those organized (I use the term loosely) by the youngest parade participants. The groups of kids might've been meandering and goofily marching as 'Geeks for Pride' or 'Multi-billionaires For Equality', but they were having a good time, and it was infectious.

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  29. "Here's how I see the situation. You belong to a party that doesn't particularly want you, a gay man, within it. It goes out of its way to deny you rights and freedoms."

    PREACH ON MY BROTHA!!!!

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  30. I made a flip remark and then left The Breeder to respond to the anonymous Republican—which he did with well-articulated reason. I've had this conversation (often) with gay men who take a stand similar to Anonymous and, frankly, I'm as tired of it as he is. (And in my experience, I find very few gay Republicans really interested in bridge-building.) For all your (and I'll paint with a broad brush) protestations that it is "fiscal conservatism" that allies you with the GOP, at what price? Denying who and what you are? In the face of everything The Breeder cites that your party espouses, do you somehow think that doesn't apply to you? They don't mean you—just the rabble-rousers and ne'er-do-wells from the Pride parades, right?

    I recall the devastation the Log Cabin Republicans felt when George W. Bush refused their (substantial) campaign contribution. Like The Breeder, I can't fathom why you'd want to be a part of a party that doesn't want you. I don't hate you—they do. With only the teensiest bit of hyperbole, I'd suggest that—it seems to me—being a gay Republican is not unlike being a Jewish Nazi or a black Klansman. I just don't understand it.

    (Thank you, Mr. Steed, for your graciousness and patience. I know I shouldn't use your blog for a partisan rant. Sometimes I can't help myself. I'll step down off my soapbox now. To the left, of course.)

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  31. My own first experience with being a 'bad' gay goes *way* back to the early days of the first LGBT organization in Denver, CO circa 1972/1973. In those days there was an intense struggle between a faction that was mostly young, left wing, anti-war, inclusive of women, people of color, etc., and a faction that was uniformly white men, mostly 30s & 40s, and in most respects entirely mainstream in their politics -- except for the queer thing, of course. In my view, these men were totally cool with the status quo powers-that-be and mostly resented the fact that being homo disqualified them from all the white male privilege they felt in their bones was their birthright. In their view, I was a crazy commiepinkohippie who was jeopardizing their efforts to convince straight people that homosexuals were really just like them except for the sex thing (which we should be careful to hide from straight sight). What shouting matches we used to have, planning the first Gay Pride event in Denver. They hated that lesbians might lead the march; they hated that it was a march, a demonstration, and not a parade, and they hated that participation from non-LGBT organizations - like Vietnam Vets Against the War and LGBT-friendly political groups - were solicited. They weren't very good at organizing and not inclined in any case, so my faction won that particular battle. In the fairness of hindsight, I was an obliviously arrogant twink, and while hardly a hippie was absolutely in the commiepinko camp (still am, actually, and maybe arrogant too). They, on their part, really were as prejudiced and bigoted as I charged. I think I am much more tolerant now, though, at least on a personal level.

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  32. Throb,

    I find very few gay Republicans really interested in bridge-building.

    Just like Congress, they like to complain about it, then sit back and wait for the bridges to be built to them. I know that sounds equally flip, but that's my experience too.

    I don't think anything I said in my response to our Log Cabin friend is really news to him, or news to any gay Republican. I've never known one who actually tried to convince me that his party really wanted him in it. Even though there are a vast number more of Republicans having gay sex than openly gay Republicans, the party itself doesn't welcome them.

    I was avoiding the comparison between gay Republicans and Jewish collaborators with the Nazi party because of Godwin's law, which states that as an internet discussion grows more lengthy, the probability of an eventual comparison between Hitler and the Nazis becomes inevitable. It's an apt comparison, though. I'd also compare it to gay supporters of the Catholic church, despite the vitriol spewed by the Pope on a regular basis.

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  33. Red,

    So you're telling me that the reason for your screen name has nothing to do with your fiery pubes and everything to do with the fact that you're a commie pinko hippie? Awesome.

    I think it's important to remember that very often today's rabble-rousers and radicals are tomorrow's mainstream. You're a living illustration of that principle. It's also one of the reasons I tend to sympathize more with strident activism than with those who want to sit quietly on the sidelines and wait for the recognition to which they feel entitled. Maybe they are entitled to receive it, but advances are made by the outspoken, not the silent.

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  34. Mr Steed, it's both. Without question the most popular aspect is the pubes. I'll take it. ;-)

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  35. At the real risk of beating this critically ill steed (rimshot) to death, I'll report that I did have one smug A-gay try to convince me (or maybe himself) that he was welcome in the GOP and I just didn't understand the inner workings of party politics. (You may recall otherwise; I grew up in a political family.) His arguments were preposterous; imagine an 1870s Stepin Fetchit lamenting the recent change in Southern labor laws. It shows the Log Cabin-boys picked the perfect patron saint in Uncle Tom.

    I was not aware of Godwin's Law, but it makes sense. For what it's worth, I made that facetious comparison "live" at the same A-gay dinner party. It didn't go over well. I was not invited back. (Score!)

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  36. If you have not considered re-running posts before now (March 2014), this one would be an ideal choice. I like the active participation, even at the risk of the author having to 'filter' out anonymous diatribes that aren't on point. (See, I'm very willing for you to do more work! ;-P )
    As for my perspective: I'd say I feel pretty in line with "Steve of Vancouver". Possibly a Pacific NW thing, possibly not, who knows? I, too, don't understand Gay Republicans and feel sorry for them. And I am a fiscally conservative independent democrat with liberal royalist leanings. Which means I will be happy to be your King, full of noblesse oblige, and won't spend the money you must give me on frivolous things. I swear I won't!
    JPinPDX

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